IRC conference on channel #arise, 23 November 1997

Directions for the JMS

For this conference there's just a formatted log. It begins at about 21:30 GMT.

People

NameIRC nickname
Participants
Giorgio Gomelskygio
Cade HannanCade
Ben HutchingsWomble
Roger MooreRog
Lennard voor den Dagldp
Robert Vervoordtdannyland/rlv

ldp
I talked to Alain Penders of the ICOA in Cologne. He said Jeff slipped a bit when he mentioned the make up of the ICOA Steering Committe.
Womble
More people have made it on Sunday before
ldp
Comittee ...
ldp
ehm, Committee ... argh
Womble
ldp: So he said on the ICOA list
Cade
i agree ben. Sunday is kind of the only time
ldp
I was sitting next to him at the devcon, he told me there. :)
Cade
Ben yes remember months ago we had really good turn outs on the sundays
ldp
I guess were getting numb here, and letting the JMS slip. Unfortunately.

[Cade sighs]

gio
A whole bunch of people - like Gary Cain I believe - don't have access to IRC...Seems difficult to believe...However, as ldp says, there has been a definite malaise about JMS. I was talking to fleecy earlier and I think Erich's ravings against him, didn't help. Now the question is, can we rebuild the JMS or should we give it up?
Womble
I really think we should continue. A lot of people have put work in and we can go on.
gio
Let me ask you guys: did you read my recent post on ARISE?
Cade
Gio very good question. I agree with fleecy that Erich caused the JMS some trouble but I never give up
Womble
We need to consider what we can do ourselves and what we should leave to others
Cade
Gio well have u posted something in the last 10 minutes?
Cade
Ben I agree fully
Cade
we can still do it
ldp
gio: as I said, I'm behind on mail. I have my mailreader open right now. Tell me the subject, and I'll read it right away.
Cade
Hopefully with Erich not here anymore things can be much better to organise thing
Cade
Perhaps we should approach Darreck and ask him for advice and suggestions?
gio
OK guys...QUestion I asked in those postings was very simple: UGN has pre-emptied a number of JMS-planned activities, so we have to think of other direction JMS could go, what it would take to do and who is realistically available...But please read the article JMS FUTURE?

[ldp is reading]

[Cade reads the post]

[Womble re-reads the post]

gio
Whatever we decide, we must be absolutely realistic and not get lost in noddy fantasy land. There are things to do, for sure, but are we as a group willuing to commit to the time and effort needed?
Cade
Well I will give as much as I can possibly give
gio
Anyway, curious to know what you think of piece I posted, so will wait for your comment...
Cade
gio well with regards to the Awards yes good idea, IRC DAY yes very good idea
Cade
Gio Would the M-Plan still at all be a worthwhile thing to look at ? or not?
Womble
I'm really starting to get the hang of CGI programming now some of the fancy ideas using the web don't seem so impossible
Cade
Ben kewl.
ldp
Yes, those are nice ideas, but it all comes down to the core of things: can we finally set ourselves up before we go play in the big world? I think that's why we're here tonight.

[Cade likes website designing]

gio
You see, the reason Wayne & Co. made fast progress was due to the fact that there was only two of them making decisions, not hampered by group consensus...
Womble
Speaking of which you can see some of the stuff I've done at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/jmscgi/
Cade
ldp that is what we have to decide
Cade
will do ben
Womble
gio: Yes, I can see that
Cade
gio yeah, i helped wayne out with the UGN cos i was irritated that I couldnt do anything without erich getting at me
Womble
gio: If you have a strong elected committee then maybe it could act quickly too.
gio
So perhaps what we should do is to find out WHO believes JMS has a future
Cade
gio I do
Womble
Are you asking now? I certainly do.
ldp
Frankly, I've never understood the whole Erich situation, and I never even found out who started it all. I'm just glad it's over now. I don't like all those politics and ego stuff going on. :(
gio
and work out ideas among us, not unlike we did at the start with myself, Steve, Skal and fleecy...
Womble
Nor me. That was terribly destructive
Cade
If we can get the right people in charge and the people with determination and enthusiasm yes
Cade
gio personally i do not have a problem when you guys did that because things got going
Womble
Hi Robert! What happened to your nick?
ldp
hi Robert!
Cade
welcome danny
dannyland
how do nick?
Cade
type /nick <nick>
dannyland
Figures, Thanks.
Cade
pleasure
ldp
I think at this point we have to ask ourselves what our goals are. Some things we could have been doing have been split off; the ICOA and UGN are examples. What can the JMS do right now?

[dannyland is now known as rlv]

Cade
:)
ldp
What could we do that makes people say: cool, I want to be a part of that.
rlv
Is it safe?
Cade
ldp well that requires a lot of thought, i dont have the answer right now but perhaps the others do?
gio
ldp: that is precicely what I'm asking in the Future piece...Is there anything the community could benefit from that we could implement? Or are we just playing at it?
Cade
gio ok. Now one thing that both Amiga Inc and the UGN are not doing is keeping the Amiga Community informed on what is exactly happening
Cade
this we can all see with the lack of news from Cologne
Womble
Right... problem is we don't want to end up in competition with CUCUG too much
rlv
We can take on the standards tasks and give out both awards of recognition and and comliance.
Womble
But CUCUG mainly seems to copy press releases, so there is a gap in the web "market"
Cade
one way we can get things going is with that Amiga day thingy where we can say perhaps once a month co ordinate a big irc conference where we can actually let the amiga community know whats happening, even rumours or whatever
Womble
rlv: Aaargh, no, standards is in the ICOA domain
Cade
Ben CUCUG only release info once hte press release has been released, as far as I can see
ldp
Cade: for a very good piece on Cologne, see <19971121.8AB5438.D9E6@asd09-17.xs4all.nl>
gio
There are good people already active in the "news gathering" business. AMigaReport for one...
Cade
thanx ldp
Womble
gio: Right, but that is a monthly collection. There is a gap for more regular reporting - and comment - but I don't know whether we have the people to do that.
Cade
yeah Report is only once amonth.
rlv
Meant standards of performance. Sort of an approval recognition thing.
gio
With regrads to "standards", that's ICOA's main goal. No, let's not cover something that others aree already doing,,,we must be original...
Womble
So... awards for excellence, then, Robert?
rlv
right
Cade
Robert that sounds like a very good idea
ldp
What if we set up a 'reporting & comments' webchat on the website?
gio
Cade, that's the Jay Miner Awards....I attached a piece about them to the
rlv
It's like OZ. Give Heart where there is fear and trepidation.
Cade
hmm webchat doesnt really work so well but it is an idea
gio
JMS FUTURE piece...
Cade
gio yes i said in a post on Arise that I really think that awards thing is great
Womble
I'm not convinced that webchat does anything that IRC doesn't already do
Cade
IT is a great priveledge receiving an award with Jay's naame on it
Cade
Ben exactly, I think the webchat is just a waste of time
ldp
IRC requires everybody to be there at the same time. In a webchat, everybody can contribute whenever then want to.
ldp
ok, next...
rlv
We have been trying to get some kind of "chat " going, but that comes after accesses on the website. Short of workers.
Womble
ldp: Then that is more of a web discussion thingy, not web chat. Yes, I can see some value in that.
rlv
Awards can come first. Will have quicker effect.
Cade
yes
Cade
How about a Xmas IRC session with Amiga Inc and darreck Lisle ? users can come on and ask him various questions?
Cade
or other guests
rlv
trying to set up a thing with my(our) ISP that will feed into the awards, certification concept.
Womble
'Celebrities' always bring the masses!
Womble
Remember when Carl Sassenrath was on IRC
ldp
rlv: can you set up some kind of voting scheme on the webpage, where people can vote for the JM awards?
Womble
Let's make sure we do it right if we do that though
Cade
ben yes there were to many people :)
Womble
Web voting is bad, very bad, because people can so easily stuff the ballot box
rlv
JmS could try to collect and collate the Amiga resources to get our peole up to the rest of the platforms re: tltcomms.
Cade
Ben yes i agree. I remember with Amiga 97 in March, had all the big shot names but it was a complete bust
gio
OK, perhaps we should launch a discussion on how users see their possible participation in promoting Amiga...
rlv
Ben's right again. See the votes for Mustapha Kemal Ataturk in the Time 100 poll.
Cade
gio good idea. Where can we post that? BUT can we do anything with no people in charge??? must we have people with actual positions
ldp
Just as the ICOA will be Amiga's channel to the developer, can the JMS be the official channel to the users, i.e. can we get a working relationship with Amiga (Int/Inc) to do that>
gio
ldp: that's what UGN have done...
rlv
True, Cade. We need workers. Steady workers. Ben is the main one on the Web Site. I'm catching up, but we need more.
ldp
gio: ok. See I'm not well informed in some areas. :(
rlv
who ldp
Cade
yes . From what I see, the UGN is more of the USer Group orientated part, I dont see the UGN as the more individual Amiga owners thing
Cade
After all it is called the User Group Network
gio
UGN are probably gonna get the "user" seat (the one we were aiming at) on ICOA SC...
Cade
Perhaps the JMS can be the Community, The Individual while the UGN is for the UG's?
ldp
What if I'm a single person somewhere. All my former Amiga-friends have gone PC. Where can I go to be part of something 'Amiga'?
rlv
What happened to our effort at User Group ot reach?
Womble
gio: That is not set in stone yet - we should have a go at getting the user seat,
Cade
rlv well we were unable to do anything because the people at the top, Erich was telling us no
Womble
Right, we have done a lot of work on this - and the UGN appears to have claimed it when this is not entirely accurate.
Cade
Gary , me etc had some really good plans back in august but well couldnt get it done
gio
User-group outreach took to long to design and agree on, UGN pre-emptied us completely. I had suggested usergroup and user outreach 10 months ago...
rlv
Christ, I've been really kept out of the loop. I tried to get the web page situation resolved to give you guys some working room.
Cade
Gio are you talking about the M-plan thingy??? wink wink , that thing that no one took notice wink wink nudge nudge ;p
Cade
rlv nps dont u worry m8
Cade
arg gotta brb
Womble
Bye Cade
gio
Ben: no chance at getting seat IMHO...So we should re-trench and come out with somethng so well put together we'll surprise people and regain some prestige we have completely lost now...
rlv
Cade: What
rlv
>?
Womble
brb = be right back
ldp
rlv: cade is saying he's gotta go, but he'll Be Right Back ...
rlv
Is this little boy's room time?
ldp
So, we lost the developers to the ICOA, the users to the UGN. We can do the awards and the Amiga-days. There must be something else?
gio
The website could become a sort of Amiga Library/Gallery and eventually a Radio/Video netcasting "station"...
rlv
Yeah, We can be anlysts and brokers where there are conflicts of interest. Those are endemic where money or power is involved. We have neuther and little hope tp get any.
Womble
The UGN is dependent on some JMS members - why can't the JMS try to bring the UGN on board?
rlv
Gio: That meshes with what I just suggested about brokeroing.
gio
Ben, forget it...UGN thinks we are a joke...As regards JMS members that help them, SKAL primarily, I have sent him a dozen messages and never got a response. Perhaps he decided to throw in his lot with them...
gio
Brokering etc., need for JMS to have "authority". Right now, we don't...
gio
Thanks to Erich...
Womble
gio: Well, I see Robert Hamilton, Skal Loret, Cade Hannan, Sam Stickland
rlv
Thanks to more than him. It takes Two (or more ) to tangle.
gio
Yes, I see them too...
gio
rlv: no way! Erich did that single-handed...
rlv
Cade's here. The others are not, and there are a lot of indications that they hve not been too dedicated to an independent, non remunerative approach.
gio
SO, how are we going to regain believeability, prestige and new members?
ldp
As I mentioned, I don't like that ego-bashing and in-fighting. Is there any light at the end of the tunnel. Is there a way for the JMS to get some new respect from the rest of the world? Or even from some of their own members? It looks rather bleak, IMHO.
rlv
Skal has said to me that Fleecy is the greatest thing to happen to the Amiga. He's gone.
gio
ldp: exactly the question we must ask the rest of the membership - which I hoped would be here today.
gio
Let's face it, if there isn't sufficicient support it means we are pissing in the wind, right?
Womble
re
rlv
by being consistent, persistent and fair. Conflicts will surface among the UGN and the developers. If we stick to a democratic and inclusional approach we'll be enhanced. If we go for caps, fees and NDAs, we'll look opportunistic. We do have to find our thing.
Cade
sheesh took 4eva to get on
Womble
If UGN gets official approval then we must support it in general.
Womble
So I think we must ensure that UGN turns out the way we want it, or else make sure that it doesn't keep that official status.
rlv
Awards imply something about the Awarder as well as the recipient. We have to care and show the world we care.
Womble
We cannot afford to be fighting UGN if and when it gets official, is what I'm trying to say.
Cade
yes we have to support each other
rlv
womble: Yes that situation is compromised.
gio
rlv: you seem to operate under the delusion that anyone out there is interestd in us or our contribution. They were once...not aymore. For us to be taken seriosly again we must come up with something....serious. UGN already have AmigaInc approval...
Womble
I'll tell you what fleecy told me:
rlv
i guess I'm looking for a position above the hustlers of commercial success. We seem always to have been concerned about the greater good of the Amiga spirit. Isn't that the core of the JMS initiative?
Womble
The TSC and any future SC will
Womble
pick
Womble
the SC user rep in the way that it considers to be the most
Womble
representative
Womble
manner for the user community. I did not say the UGN will be allowed to
Womble
pick
Womble
the user rep
Womble
- what it means is that the JMS will have to submit, along
Womble
with
Womble
others who wish to manage this their plans for selecting a truly
Womble
representative
Womble
user rep, and this will be the same for any user.
Womble
(Sorry about formatting of that)
Cade
nps ben
Womble
This has come about
Womble
a) because of Erich giving the whole ICOA the impression that the JMS is
Womble
elitist
Womble
b) the on going private mail row between Gio and Alain
Womble
Now I'm intrigued by (b). Can you explain, Gio?
Cade
hmm never heard about that one
Womble
Then he continues:
rlv
What? I thought Alain was beeing good these days.
Womble
c) Wayne Hunt going straight to Amiga Inc with his idea and getting them
Womble
to buy into it.
Womble
Remember that Wayne brought the UGN idea to the JMS but it was in the
Womble
middle of arguing
Womble
about webpage colours, then both he and Colin were accused of being ICOA
Womble
stooges - he just
Womble
took his idea and ran with it. Amiga Inc listened.
Cade
yeah
gio
If we could really develop the website towards some sort of "netcasting", we would have us a "first", like ICOA was a first. Re Penders, it was private and that's that. He got my back up (and fleecy's too by the way) on a few occasions and I felt sick in the stomach from his venom. Noe he's upset because we took him off the Arise list when we changed it to JMS and has swirn to oppose any JMS candidate for ICOA seat...
Cade
but i still get the impression of the UGN being mainly for the User Group
Womble
Gio: I thought only those wanted to be taken off would be taken off?
Cade
gio yeah netcasting would be great, wish i had the know how
rlv
Wayne didn't give any real consideration to JMS. He and Colin got caught in a grab to get the JMS webpage to use for the UGN. It's in the Emails. Colin screamed that Fleecy put him up to it. Then I got shut out. Gio ca\n fill this in.
Womble
gio: Netcasting is currently too propietary and unfeasible for most people using modems
Womble
gio: It's also a step in the wrong direction - towards passivity
gio
Re being off ARise list: we couldn't go on with people not members of JMS
Womble
gio: Interaction is whaat we should have
rlv
If not netcasting, then some other up front abilities can be tried. Ben, you're forgetting your own work on enabling an inclusional website. There aren't many out there.
Womble
That's just what I'm saying - go for something inclusive and interactive
rlv
We need to include people of good will and who see service as a noble activity.
gio
lurching away and yes, nicking ideas. We should've had a JMS list long time ago...Re NetCasting: has to start sometime, already happening in PC and Mac world...in big way.
rlv
How close are we to getting the accesses enough in place to get a few people enabled?
Womble
Right, but this is Internet Exploder with its horrible "Channels" schem
Womble
rlv: I need to get some help from Ron in actually changing configurations, but I should be able to set up at least a test version this week. Then I suppose I can invite webteam people to test it out.
gio
rlv: problem with Amigans (some anyway) is that all want to be "stars" somehow.Real dedication, willing to chore away humbly not very common...
rlv
Gio, we had a lot of work to do because the Amiga community doesn't have the browser capabilities that the others have. We had to make a more universal page to include the Amiganauts.
Cade
hello and welcome rog
Rog
Hi all!
Womble
Hello Rog
gio
Listen, if AmigaInc is to get anywhere, those problems will have to be addressed. We could be the "experimental" site AND get support from Ainc if we could get a lanb together ...
Cade
ah guys i am really sorry, I have a splitting headache and I need to go and lie down, please send me an email about what is talked and decided on please,thanx and gluck
rlv
So, we have some tough realities, but if we have inclusion, we have a unique distinction. Yes, Gio ther eare an awful lot of stars. I hadf to reign in my own ego in order to do what I was able to do for the JMs. I's not so bad. It can be done.
Womble
rlv: No, this is nothing to do with inferior Amiga software, it is what all sites should do just because it is the Right Thing
Rog
I have walk in to the middle of this topic and i'm not following it so well, can someone up-date me?
rlv
Gio, that "experimental Site" idea is very close to what I'm working on with my ISP and it was what got them to be so cooperative inn the first place. Ben;'s access work is vital here. Workers are vital too.
Womble
gio: You think that an inclusive website is a sufficient Unique Selling Point?
ldp
Right, I hate those over-designed websites that require the 'True Browser[tm], but we're getting into details here when we should think of the broad issues.
gio
The more I cogitate, the more I believe on JMS concentrating hard on onr or max 2 projects and bring those to fruition. Jay Miner Awards not a big deal to organize (see attachment I sent) but still needs people to help. Experimentasl website would me asset to community and perhaps get help from all sorts of quarters...
rlv
Inclusion is the broad issue that distinguishes us from the others. That's our Ace in the hole.
gio
Please explain "inclusion" aspect...
ldp
yes, please do
rlv
Gio, the two you have singled out resonate with me, too. I'm working on one and will lend all support to the other. We can do both. We need us to be working at them with definition.
Womble
gio: By "inclusion" I mean the general membership getting involved in providing web content
Rog
a concentrated effert does bring stronger and faster results.
rlv
Inclusion is the capability to include contributions from all members in the functioning of a project. In the case of our website, we would have JMS members responsible fro tyhe content of their particular portion of the web site
gio
Ben: OK I get it and it's a very good idea...Clearly a really cool website would stand us in very good stead and give us necessary prestige...How can we proceed here then?
rlv
JMS contributors would update their documents/directories directly, as needed without waiting for the webmaster to get off his behind.
Rog
We could use low-mid-high bandwith/browser versions of the web site.
Womble
gio: The scripts I am working on now are what will allow the people who are in charge of each section of the website to change that without having a password to control the whole thing
Womble
Rog: If we use scripts to generate stuff then, yes, that is possible. But elegant degrading is possible by clever use of static HTML anyway.
rlv
Ben and our ISP get the access situation resolved. The rest of us take on tasks. We redisign the website and come up with some cool new things.
ldp
ben: I wonder how you will pull that off.
ldp
It is a good idea. It has taken too long in the past to get access to the then-website.
Rog
Yes, it would be good coding that could do that type of work
rlv
LDP: Ben has already got a bit of cooperation from our ISP. They want to do it.
ldp
Having access to my own part of a website would really get me going, and trying to make it better than the rest. :)
ldp
rlv: I hope it doesn't work on the principle of fixed IP addresses...
Womble
I wish I had some help from Rudi though... I don't know what he is doing now
Womble
ldp: No, it doesn't use that. It uses authentication using name and password
Womble
ldp: There is a problem with that in that passwords don't appear to get encrypted, so I'm not entirely happy yet
rlv
Yeah, but think of how many web sites have such an inclusional orientation. Most are filtered through one fanatic with a control problem.
ldp
Oh, now I see what you meant. I can access my part without having the master password...
rlv
Encryption may be a later thing. It should work in a simpler way at first.
ldp
How about using SSL? One drawback: which Amiga browser supports it. :(
Womble
No, this is not an SSL issue.

The record ends at 22:43.

This record begins at 22:43 on Sun 23 Nov 1997.

Womble
re
ldp
hey gio, nice move :)
rlv
Oh back already ;-0
Womble
Enough of these technical issues anyway... leave me to deal with them until I need some help!
rlv
We only have a few people to do work. It can be wrung out in relative ovbscurity, at first. Then we can offer the direct access that almost no one has elsewhere.
gio
SORRY, got disconnected...Was saying we could ask all kinds of people to help. One is Dave Haynie (JMS member btw) another Carl S. and there are others. We should however keep our plans "under cover" as regards public, until things are worked out...and then we could get back "on the scene" with a vengeance...
Womble
Right, you aree suggesting major publicity... but what will be the message?
ldp
Tell me how and if I can help out setting that inclusion scheme up, or test it, when you are ready.
rlv
I have gotten a promise of help from Carl Sassenrath already, just have to set things up with my ISP when Rbol is ready enough.
Womble
ldp: Are you on the webteam@jms.org list?
gio
No major publicity until projects functionning...
rlv
BTW, Who are you, ldp?
ldp
womble: no
ldp
I'm in The Netherlands (GMT+1)
ldp
oh rlv, sorry, misread that. I'm Lennard voor den Dag
rlv
Ah, Landsman.
rlv
I'm Robert L. Vervoordt. I think you helped me out in the past.
ldp
member 16
rlv
I'm #1. Wow!
ldp
So, put up your picture already! :) (No, I don't have one myself...)
Rog
I'm Roger Moore # 31 or 32? I can't remember for sure
ldp
Rog: #31
ldp
Hey Ben, that's an old picture, right?
rlv
If we're worried about securuty, and I am, we can't use the old webteam@jms.org list.
Rog
Has anyone addressed the method of choosing the rep. yet
ldp
If somebody can put me on that list, I'll see what I can contribute.
gio
Seems to me we now should establish a Working Group-like outfit (mostly people from webteam and this IRC?) to study, plan and implement things on website...
rlv
So, I'm still looking for one that lets me look like Sean Connery, or at least almost as good.
Womble
ldp: It's from May
rlv
Baldy chic, you know.
Womble
Rog: Which rep are we talking about?
Womble
rlv: What do you mean, security?
Rog
for ICOA, the JMS reps for it.
ldp
You mean the webteam@jms.org address is still forwarded through netreach>
ldp
?
Womble
ldp: Yes, currently. CNCT has not yet set up mail service as far as I know.
Womble
ldp: But Rudi controls it anyway
Womble
Rog: The ICOA hasn't decided that it will take a rep from the JMS...
gio
Rog: we talked about this earlier and feel that in present circumstance JMS has very little chance of getting into ICOA committe. UGN took care of that...
rlv
Gio mentioned not letting our plans and work be known before we're ready. Simple stuff, not tecnical security. Why? You have some ideas?
Womble
Rog: The ICOA has been asking around for proposals from organisations that would like to put forward the User Rep. Currently the UGN is the favourite.
Rog
It seems, I've confused both groups?
Womble
rlv: If we really need to keep a secret then private mail will do.
rlv
We have to have the DOmain Name and address in our own control. That's a bottom line kind of thing.
Womble
Rog: The UGN is this new thing set up by Wayne Martin and another Wayne, associated with amiga.org. Look at http://www.amiga.org/usergroups/
gio
Sam Stickland suggested we put up common candidate with UGN, but I think they now don't need us and they are rather ambitious folks, so think of themselves first...
Rog
Thanks for the info guys
rlv
Right Ben, we can do a CC list again. There are'nt that many of us left. My concerns are about the absences of Guvenc and Rudi lately.
Womble
Rog: It has some kind of approval from Amiga Inc now... seems very dictatorial to me but if its official then what else can we do
Womble
rlv: Well, mail them individually and find out what's going on. I was going to ask Rudi for some help and comments on my scripts...
gio
CC list seems good for WG...
rlv
It is dictatorial and hierarchical. Fatal flaws in my book.
Womble
What is wrong with webteam@jms.org?!?!
Womble
Surely that is the current working group for the web presence
rlv
there are a lot of people still getting that mail who are not members of LMS nad it goes through another provider, whose history is not reasuring.
Womble
rlv: Well get on to Rudi, who looks after the list!!!
rlv
How many of us will be involved on these projects 6 apiece?. Make it a CC list and be sure.
rlv
Once the Domain situation is resolved, and there's no NetReach and noredirection, then we can work a little easier. Please do it with a CClist now.
gio
OK, are we in agreement about the "JMS Renaissance Working Group", goals to be 1. website experimentation 2.Jay Miner Awards? Communication through CC?
Womble
Where do you get the name "JMS Renaissance Working Group" from?
ldp
yes
gio
Just invented it...
rlv
BTW, I looked at the Articles of Association, and they, as the only legal document of the JMS, seem to enable Gio to set up the elections and appoint delegates to do his work.
Womble
And what is it supposed to actually do?
rlv
Gio ius always inventing these kind of things.
Womble
The webteam looks after website experimentation... then you can have an Awards working group to look after setting up the JM Awards
gio
Coze options are either rebuild JMS or dissappear!!
Womble
Combining the two doesn't seem like a good idea to me - but a publicity working group might play a co-ordinating role
rlv
Right, Ben, but both get coordinated toward the greater goal of JMS "rennaisance".
Womble
Technical issues don't belong on such a list though, surely?
gio
Ben, right now, the "Renaissance" team is US,here present, and whoever we could recruit to help...
rlv
Cordination and division of labor. One to keep an Eye on the goal. The other to do the kicking.
Womble
Then the Renaissance team is whoever wants to be involved from JMS... and why not use ARise for thaT?
Womble
I'm trying to get some more precise idea of how things will be organised.
rlv
Ben takes a bit of time, but he does come aroud. :-)
rlv
Because Arise is porous.
gio
Ben: OK for Renaissance Team to hang out in ARise/JMS list. Might inspire others BTW. If you prefer keeping technical stuff somewhere else, OK too.
Womble
Technical stuff is only useful and meaningful to a small number of peeps, so it's a bad idea to clutter up other people's mailboxes with it
gio
What I think we need re website experimentation is a list of solutions we can legitimaly seek help for from competent people...I can write to Dave Haynie
rlv
Ben: Precision may be too much to expect from an IRC. So far, we have been in communication, Gio, you and I about this sad situation, and have gotten something moving, again, ever so slightly. Let's branch out from the three of us to some more of us. There's wher we'll gain the precision.
gio
to start off
rlv
i can buzz Carl S. again.
Womble
Let's have some ideas about content though... no point in saying we want to do an amazing website which will feature... er, don't know what we'll put on it.
Womble
That isn't critical at the moment but it's something the web-team might want to discuss
rlv
So the upshot is that JMS does two things. Individuals do one thing, and Gio does all things?
Womble
Eh, what?
rlv
Nick Blatchford is coming up with something. Can one person scour the net for Amiga news briefs? One person.
Womble
Having said that, we have the "Hall of Artists" and "Hall of Blachford" ideas still. They are good ideas if we actually get people coming to the site and wanting to be involved.
gio
OK, we can write report to membership outlining our plan and asking for support.Same time we pursue website research. Then we work on presentation to be put to AmigaInc. If UGN got an ear, we can too, provided we have worked out really cool plan and have support from some "nmotabilities"...
rlv
Ben, I meant that the JMS has the two projects going, and individuals are responsible for their part in one or the other. Gio, as the last Trustee watches it all and coordinates.
Womble
Let's not forget those elections though!
Womble
gio: That sounds good
gio
Re elections: how do you see them?
rlv
Got to have elections, but as things stand now, there are no Bylaws, only the Aof A. They should suffuce, and Gio will have to call those shots. With some input I hope.
rlv
Check out the AofA again. They can do it.
rlv
Ben: we'll talk later and get concrete about the next web steps. Gio is onto elections and awards, and he can pick his assistants for each. Is that sufficient for now?
Womble
That sounds OK, Robert.
rlv
Who's left here? I need to go. And I want to be sure I can get back to some of you.
rlv
How about some Email addresses \, or are we all JMS members?
Womble
Robert: What do you mean, who's left? I can see me, you, Gio and Lennard
Womble
We are all members
ldp
I'm here, but not for long.
gio
OK then, listen: The AoA as everyone knows by now I hope, were necessary to register the Association. SO were the positions of President, Secretary and Treasurer, latter two having right of signature with bank. I would dearly pass on the Treasury stuff to someone else, perhaps rlv who lives nearby, helped by Canadian Andrew for foreign contributors. Nor for ego-reasons, but to have some authority I would then like to be President for a while, to go and knock on doors. Ben, if agreable could be Secretary and we'll ask some willing others like the 2 Garys from TeamAmiga to participate...
rlv
That's it, then. I can get back to everyone. Lennard, what do you want to do? Where do you see your involvement and greatest contributions
ldp
rlv: I'm not too good with committees and setting those things up. Just put me down with some actual tasks in webpages or programming, and I'm your man.
gio
Re TeamAmiga: I started conversation with Gary Peake re close collaboration on Jay Miner Awards and other outreaches. An alliance with them seems a "natural" at this stage...
rlv
Gio, the Treasury has always been a bad thing for me. Let's talk later, and bring Andrew in, as he is concerned, even though he is not here.
Womble
re Rog
Rog
I made it back
rlv
Ben: You heard Lennard? We got another one. Let's find him some work.
Womble
rlv: I've just mailed Rudi about that
rlv
About what?
Womble
rlv: Adding him to the webteam list - along with asking for advice on CGI scripts.
ldp
Do note that I'm working on other things as well, most notably the AROS project, so don't put me down with something that would require 10 hours a day, plz.
Womble
ldp: No-one's going to do that. Requests for help tend to go out to the webteam list and then people with the right expertise get involved
ldp
good, so get me on that list already. :-)
rlv
ldp: That kind of effort is over with that was for Ben, me and Guvenc in what? August , September? Ben, I'm losing terack of time!
gio
Well, "formal" functions (with Bank etc.,) we can deal with I'm sure since there won't be endless transactions, but I feel membership needs to see some action inside JMS organization, hence elections. Or, we can go like ICOA with Temporary Steering whatnot and see what happens...
Womble
Please, let's have proper elections. If nothing else, that should get people interested and involved in the running of the JMS.
rlv
Gio: Yes, something. I have to go. Email me later, You and Ben. I have more to say,. This has been good and right. Lennard. Rog. Loved hearing from you.
ldp
re: Elections, can we set a date for those?
Rog
Bye
Womble
OK, bye Robert
ldp
bye
gio
OK, if you want elections, let's define and organize them.
Womble
They're really yours to organise. Can you come up with a timetable... get them over before Christmas at least?!
rlv
Ben: Yes real elections. JMs 2 things. Individuals one and Gio sets up a TSC. OK? Can I go now.
Womble
Why a TSC? Why not a proper Steering Committee?
rlv
Isit safe?
Rog
Elections would spread out the work load
rlv
TSC or SC, anything.
ldp
At least get something in place.
rlv
Got ot go. Gone!
gio
Ben: I've no idea how to organize elections, never done it before, so please indicate how...
ldp
I will vote whenever there is a vote. wink wink
Womble
Ah, this could be a problem then...
Womble
The basic principle is you invite nominations up to a certain deadline, then voting takes place a little after that. Of course you have to choose the voting system too.
ldp
Perhaps we can ask Andy and Dave about this. At least Andy indicated some experience with setting up these things.
Womble
i.e. do you choose First-Past-the-Post, or something more complex?
gio
Andy Finkel?
ldp
gio: yes.
Womble
When you are electing multiple people in one "constituency" it can get a bit complicated
Rog
why not use the SC and replace each office every so-many months on a rotating method?
gio
I don't think the rest of the membership (not present here) is that much interested. Perhaps we (sort of SC right?) should put forward a list and
gio
ask people to comment or approve...
Womble
Rog: We have to elect several people this time.
ldp
Let me just tell you that I myself have absolutely no experience in these things.
Womble
I don't think that is really good enough. We should be properly democratic about this, shouldn't we?
gio
Ben: Ok then, you set it up...
Rog
now we're voting on methods ...
Womble
I can't set it up, I want to stand for election! ;-)
gio
What do you want to be?
Womble
Er, just on the Steering Committee. There are only three titles aren't there?
Womble
The reckoning is that there are five members, right? And you are intending to stay around as one, so that means there are four seats to fill.
ldp
ok, I'm off in a few minutes. Mail me whenever you found something for me to do.
Womble
There's a rather complicated voting method called Condorcet which lets everyone specify order of preference just as they wish, and then tells you which people are most popular.
Womble
That might be good in this case. But then there's the question of who takes which role.
Womble
I am assuming, of course, that there would be >4 nominations
Rog
being that we have only 34 paid members, (web site) it would not be hard to pick out a few
gio
Ben: than lets' have SC elections by all means, that's simple enough. Re "official" needs, 3 members are fine or 20, whatever Board decides. Problem now, we don't have a board anymore, we hardly have an interested membership which leaves the few of us to hold the baby...
Womble
There are interested people who just couldn't make it tonight, I suspect.
Rog
I seldom chat, but was intersted enough to check out what changes are going on,( or soon to go on)
Womble
Seems to me it is your decision to make. So how many SC members would you suggest?
gio
Who? Let's write a report about what we discussed today, describe options available, send it to membership and ask them to respond.

The record ends at 23:57.