IRC conference on channel #arise, 27 July 1997

This record was written by Ben Hutchings. It is based on logs of the conference, but has been heavily edited:

IRC nicknames were replaced with real names.
Questions and replies were re-ordered slightly so as to represent the progress of discussion more clearly.
Some spelling errors, typing errors and omitted words were fixed to improve readability.
Continuation lines were joined to previous contributions where appropriate.
Off-topic discussions were removed.
The introduction of each item was replaced by an item heading.
Lines that expressed only agreement were removed.
Some specific names that were not important to what was being said were removed at the request of the participants who mentioned those names.

People

Name IRC nickname
Participants
Darren Eveland HammerD
Robert Hamilton lostman
Cade Hannan Cade
Ben Hutchings womble
Erich Keser Erich
Skal Loret skal
Observers
Dean Brown Dean
Thomas Svenson AmigaInfo
Persons referred to
Rudi Chiarito Nutello
Giorgio Gomelsky Gio
Fleecy Moss fleecy

Name	IRC nickname
Participants
Darren Eveland	HammerD
Robert Hamilton	lostman
Cade Hannan	Cade
Ben Hutchings	womble
Erich Keser	Erich
Skal Loret	skal
Observers
Dean Brown	Dean
Thomas Svenson	AmigaInfo
Persons referred to
Rudi Chiarito	Nutello
Giorgio Gomelsky	Gio
Fleecy Moss	fleecy

The meeting, and this record, began at about 20:05 GMT. Present at the beginning of the meeting were Darren, Robert, Cade, Ben, Erich, Skal, and Thomas.

Item 1: The treasurer

Erich: We have to have a commitment from Gio to process memberships, and also an easy way for him to post these and money items on the web page.
Skal: I will speak to Gio, and take his temperature. We can proceed from that point in whatever way we must.
Erich: Is there anyone in the NY area to help here? Some other AMUSE member?
Skal: rlv is a short train ride from NYC.
Erich: I have already asked him. He does NOT want to deal with finances. STRONG no.
Skal: Well, I am 60 miles out of NYC. I will try to build a fire under Gio.
Erich: Sorry if it ends up having to be you... but perhaps if we really spell out and limit his duties to receiving memberships, working out payment details (tell him to takle POSTAL MO's to the Post Office, btw!) and depositing and recording cash.
Skal: Okee... Just lemme try to get Gio to deal with stuff he has on hand...
Erich: Good idea! It is likely not easy to change the Treasurer, either with the bank or with the state of NY.
Skal: Not easy at all. Pretty goddamn messy, actually...
Erich: The problem for me is that I have (had?) three or four prospective members interested in joining, forwarded their names to him, and...nothing! And I just don't have time to chase...
Skal: Lemme handle it. I think I can achieve a modicum of success.
Erich: Great Skal...and thanks! Related to which, does anyone remember which Brit offered to collect and send on money for us? Was it Hutchinson? Euros like to use Eurocheques, and this would simplify matters for us. Most people do NOT like to send money in mail, as Gio suggests.
Ben: My name is Hutchings, and no I didn't offer! It was fleecy.
Robert: For people who wish to join, where should they send their money? Or should they for a while?
Skal: Continue to send it to Gio. I will get that situation sorted out.
Erich: Okay... I also set up a German account for my mother while I was there, but want to get things well sorted out before using it. At the very least, people should get a receipt (could be attached to Email)
Cade: Should we also have an official JMS newsletter which we send to members to let them know they have become official JMS members?
Robert: They maybe need something more if they wish to use it for taxes.
Cade: Or a certificate or something, so they know that their money has been received.
Ben: I think we should - plus a weekly/monthly round-up. The IAS did this briefly.
Skal: At least an official confirmation email, PGP signed...
Erich: All good ideas, as long as there are people to do this. There were actually 3 Email newsletters put out by Gio, and then I did one myself based on the press release of JMS legalization, as #4.
Cade: So what else should we discuss about the money etc and treasurer?
Robert: Maybe we need to revisit this issue once Gio is contacted again?
Darren: Where is Gio?
Skal: Gio has been suffering from well-deserved burnout, like many of us have. I am working at getting the saddle back on him.

Robert: BTW, not to interrupt the flow, but maybe we should set up a regular IRC conf for these issues?
Skal: That is fine and doable. We have this channel and #2w. Easy as pie.
Cade: I was thinking of maybe every month having something like #amiga97 where we get special guests and let the public come and ask questions etc. A monthly Amiga Conference for everyone.
Robert: Should we do an issue meeting 1 or 2 times a month at the same time?
Erich: Not a bad idea...but Sunday PM is not an ideal time for many of us...on the other hand UK and Germany and Italy must be able to participate. What time zone are you, Cade?
Cade: Erich it is 22:36 here. I am an hour ahead of GMT
Robert: It's 4:36pm here in Atlanta (EST)
Erich: Well, I'm eight hours behind GMT in summer, , 76 in winter, and Carl, RJ and Luck (and CAians) are an hour further behind
Skal: If we get these small issues squared away, we will have JMS in the position to respond to any eventuality that may come along, and the possibility of said eventualities coming along are reasonably good.
Erich: Okay with Item 2...let's keep thinking about best IRC times or alternating them. Every 2 weeks is about right.

Item 2: The Web pages

Current pages: http://www.jms.org/
Rudi Chiarito's front page: http://www.cli.di.unipi.it/~chiarito/jms/

Ben: Is the website still only editable by fleecy and Nancy?
Skal: Last I heard, Rudi (Nutello) had edit access...
Robert: Are we going to change the whole structural flow of the web site?
Ben: What do you mean? The web site could certainly do with better structuring. At the moment it has a flat model.
Robert: Are we going to have the same links and info as is now?
Ben: I hope not - it has basically been added to hotchpotch as fleecy has spent brief moments on it.
Erich: I suggest a team of 3-5 people to work on website on an ongoing basis, all do not have to have access, but must be prepared for that eventuality (like happened with treasurership). It is now a mo out of date!
Skal: There are only so many directions you can go. The "Beta" page I saw, by Nutello, was fantastic. We need, I think, to shore up his confidence a bit. His HTML work is world-class - clean, simple, esthetically pleasing work. We have to get that new front page up, and document the subpage structure.
Erich: The beauty of the page isn't really the point (though must be improved). We need a clear access procedure... Andrew B and RLV have both had major problems trying to get any access, while Guvenc kaplan and P Krenzloc have poroduced nice proposed pages with

[Unfortunately Erich never completed this sentence!]

Robert: I don't know that much about web design, but it seems to me that we need to specify exactly what's the content and where it needs to go (issues of flow) before issues of graphics are discussed am I wrong?
Ben: I agree. We need to come up with some standard for directory structures, otherwise we will soon get name collisions and other undesirable problems
Erich: Robert: You are exactly right. RLV has volunteered to put much work into this...even learned all the hexcode, etc.
Skal: Well, the page structure and naming must be set and documented. The graphics are easy...
Ben: A consistent house style is also important.. hopefully CSS will help in this dept in the long run
Robert: I would like to see maybe a flow chart?
Skal: Someone has to volunteer to create and maintain said flow chart...

[Skal leaves]

Robert: Not I said the rad hen. :) I can do graphics you need someone tight in the organizational structure who know the info and how it needs to be presented. Maybe nuttello can be a project manager if he is the one coding it together.
Erich: The webpage must be ACCESSIBLE, esp for simple things like updating treasury and membership lists. Who is Nutello's alternate?
Robert: Is he close enuogh to JMS to know the information?
Erich: Not in the last little while IMHO (Nutti may be on vacation or something)...we need alternates...some JMS members are getting really upset.
Robert: Maybe he (nuttello) can suggest one
Cade: Well Rudi spoke to me but I think someone else would be better
Erich: Than Rudi, you mean? doesn't mean we cut Rudi out of loop... just that people contact someone else, and he goes ahead if Rudi not accessible
Cade: Good idea - 2 or so JMS Supervisors.
Robert: We may be at an impasse on the alternate. Maybe do a call on the webteam list?
Ben: It's probably a bad idea to let all and sundry have access to web admin - so we need to make sure there will be at least one webmaster around to do maintenance within 24h of it becoming necessary. Individuals who maintain parts of the site's content should be able to name pages how they like - all their pages can go into an appropriate subdir on the site.
Erich: RLV expressed a great interest, and did a very detailed list of what and how to improve things on 2W...suggest that he be seriously considered...would demonstrate our responsiveness to criticism and suggestions. (He's also JMS member#1)
Ben: I dunno about criticism.. I think he's just pissed that nothing is being done on the website, and I have felt the same way for a month now. Not everyone who makes web pages needs to actually link them together - so I would agree on limiting access to a handful of administrators.
Erich: Oh, i fully agree with that...just know that rlv is eager to get into this. And you're right, his criticisms were very constructive.
Robert: I would also say that the Sup or the Admin needs to set the time table for issues for here on out about his subject. We don't want to get too specific without their imput.

Item 3: Merging JMS members into the ARise list

Ben: Can we first have a clear definition of what the ARise list is for?
Robert: I am only on one list. now how much of an increase should I expect with a merge?
Erich: We need 1) an explanation to ARise members 2) an intro to JMS members.
Ben: You are assuming the merger has been agreed. If the "Amiga vets" and Amiga users are to share a list, then it must be moderated.
Erich: That's why I've been so resistant/reluctant about the merger!
Robert: What is the reason for the interest in merging?

[Cade leaves]

Ben: I'm not entirely sure most users want to talk about the same sort of things at the same sort of level as the "veterans".
Erich: On the other hand, the ARise list has been very slow, JMS members have had no list of their own...and we can't have FOUR lists.
Robert: Maybe we should list the advantages and disadvantages?

[Thomas leaves]

Robert: Maybe just have 2 lists?
Ben: What is Arise for now that there is the ICOA list?

[I got way off-topic here, so I've removed the discussion of the ICOA list]

Ben: Let me get back to my point... Unless we are to end up with mailing lists just like newsgroups (only more wasteful of bandwidth) we must go moderated.

[Cade rejoins]
[Skal rejoins]

Erich: The ARise list is the survival of the original CC list. Includes Carl S., RJ, Luck, Haynie, Sinz, Finkel, Fish, Woodall, Laser, etc, etc. Tended to function at a much higher level than IC seems to, currently.

[Erich leaves]
[Dean joins]

Ben: To get back to the point, does anyone think JMS members should be added to ARise, and if so why and under what conditions?
Cade: I do not. I think ARise should stay with the vets. I don't think we should invade their property as such
Skal: Little goes on there. The original participants are involved in their start-ups, REBOL, et al, ad nauseaum.
Cade: I think that if you let any JMS member onto the ARise that could be a problem. Anyone can be a JMS member if you have the cash but a JMS member might no nothing and be a pest.
Skal: We have played that town before...;')
Cade: I think rather keep them separate and if there is a subject that involves either list, we can always CC or something, but hey what do I know
Skal: Separate is better for now, methinks. Arise is dead, right now.
Cade: I dont think we need that type of complication, lets sort out the website and stuff first :)
Ben: What exactly do JMS members need to discuss among only themselves? Would it not be better dealt with by a moderated mailing list...which requires only one more mailing address... which is free?
Skal: Second-Wind is the JMS mailing list, and can be moderated very easily.
Ben: But it is not the JMS mailing list, because it is open to non-JMS members!
Skal: Do we really need yet another mailing list?
Ben: You have been talking as if we need a mailing list especially for JMS members. In that case, I guess we do...
Skal: Well, make Arise the JMS mailing list, and let the vets know that we will be conducting business in there, occasionally. I really don't need yet another list...argl.
Robert: Maybe the JMS list should be public to get feedback from non-members?
Skal: It can be used as an "attractant" too...
Ben: But hang on, what kind of mailing list do JMS members need? Another talking-shop, or a moderated list that is effectively a newsletter?

[Erich rejoins]

Skal: We can send newsletters out on a cc: list, as far as that is concerned...
Ben: But what about contributions to the newsletter?
Skal: Sent to the central scrutinizer of the Newsletter.
Ben: So what do JMS members need to discuss that can't be dealt with on Second Wind or in the newsletter or by short CC lists specific to the issue they are discussing?
Skal: Who wants to handle the newsletter, as Editor Pro Tempore...?
Erich: So, what is the consensus re merging JMS members into ARise list? This list is pretty inactive at the momemnt, and about a dozen JMSer's are likely on it already...then there are others, like Carl's neighbour Marilynn, who'd be very welcome on ARise.
Ben: I don't think we have one yet
Darren: I think you should ask on the LIST first (arise)
Skal: What would the benefits of a merger be, as you see them?
Ben: Can anyone answer my question - what do JMS members need to discuss that can't be dealt with on Second Wind or in the newsletter or by short CC lists specific to the issue they are discussing?
Erich: Well, a number of people joined the JMS because they though it would get them on the ARise list. The problem is maintaining 3 lists. As you may recall, 2W almost disappeared around the IC launch...it tooks weeks to get it going again...and ARise never really has!
Ben: I don't see why the JMS should be a haven for the engineers' worshippers.
Erich: JMS members should be party to high level discussions of the long-term startegy for getting the Amiga going again. ARise has much the same purpose. They don't want nuts and bolts tech discussions, but higher level ones.
Ben: Then give JMS members read-only access to ARise
Erich: Look, ARise is largely a historical artifact. Was planned to form basis for an "Advisory Council"...but the IC rushed ahead in a very different way. These people are (mostly) not interested in say the IC SC..but are still hanging in.
Skal: Several of the vets who were involved in the formative IRC sessions told us that they were not interested in active participation. Moreover, when I was in Atlanta, I was sent a message by Dale Luck: A number of the vets were watching us, supported ICOA, and wanted us, very much, to succeed. They could not participate due to contractual and other constraints, but wanted us to know that they wanted things to succeed. They also, very much, supported the growth and continuance of JMS.
Erich: Great to know, wish you'd told me earlier (they send me occasional private messages too!) Still would like them to have mechanism for input (at the moment, ARise and Carl's channels to GW, etc, are it).
Skal: Well, they are all still hooked to it, afaik. I am sure if they had something to say, they would say it. Shy, they are not...;') I think that we can create more participation in Arise by posting bits of info that would draw them out.

Item 4: Recruitment

Erich: One last item for today: recruitment. But let's make it job-recruitment: who's doing what?
Ben: Treasurer: We decided Gio needs to take up this job properly, didn't we?
Skal: We did. I shall be tackling that issue. Allow me a little time for gentle persuasion...;')
Ben: Secretary: ?
Cade: Well, what I think we should do, once the website is up and running, I think we should get people on mailing lists to let subscribers know about the JMS and get the magazines to do articles on us.
Robert: I will work with Nuttello and get a time table or kickstart the webwork.

[Darren leaves]

Robert: Should we talk about a membership package? Or is it too early? What about recruitment do we want to cover?

[Ben leaves]

Cade: There's lots to discuss, but not much we can do right now.
Skal: Well, recruitment will be best served by gussying up the website, for a coherent "Public Face".
Erich: We do have to divide up the work. That's why I bent the item.

[Dean leaves]

Erich: So far we have Jim Ventola, Thom Svenson and I on membership (with help from Carl), Nutti and Womble and Cade and RLV on webpage
Skal: I would suggest that anyone aspiring to contribute to the website get out their browser, check the best sites, and divine what makes them best. Cleanliness and clarity of design are the two most important elements.
Robert: I want to flesh out this issue of User group memberships and promo packet. Or am I jumping the gun?
Skal: Do you want to, offline, put down some thoughts, and post them to Second-Wind for further discussion?
Erich: Roberto, you are right to want to get this going. It's long overdue. I have been discussing it with Gary Caine...it would be great if you helped hiom on this (it's already something of a thread on 2W).
Skal: Develop a plan, offline, for user group outreach and membership package. We'll chime in on the tweakage. Cade: Put losty together with Gary. The three of you can develop a proposal.
Robert: Sure. But I suffer from not being that close to the organization. I don't know what the benefits are of membership and the issue of user groups; I would just like to get some more feeback on them.
Skal: Once you get a proposal Mark 1/Mod 1 put together, post it to 2w for a short discussion.
Robert: I will
Erich: We also need something of a "writing group" to do things like press releases, invitations, manifestos, etc. Jim Ventola is proofreding for the webteam, and Steve, Skal and I used to do this.
Cade: I will help if needs be, if i am able to.
Skal: I can continue with this, as time allows, and Steve can be dragged into the fray... Just takes some gentle prodding, and embarrassing him a bit...;')
Erich: Well, Cade, help is appreciated...but don't stretch yourself too thinly...point is to divide up the work. A final, ticklish job has been liaison with the Amigavets, etc. I've done most of that...though Steve Bowie's been invaluable here. At some point we should get some input mechanism in place for them. Sounds like ARise will stay it for now.
Skal: Please remember this: The Amiga Show in NYC is in October. We must consider what a JMS presence would and could mean, and how we should go about this...
Robert: Who is planning to go?
Skal: I am, if I am not on a tour...
Robert: A tentative yes for me too.

[Cade leaves]

Erich: You might ask Bowie if he's coming. Skal, I would like to consult with you periodically re relations with Avets...

[Cade rejoins]

Robert: Well before we all go can we revisit the issue of on-going IRC conf? At least pin down a next bus. meeting date?
Erich: As a final item (gotta go!), we need a working Steering committee. Suggest that one person from each work group/team (and an alternate for the bigger ones) be asked to participate.
Cade: Yes. Definitely at least once a week.

[Ben rejoins]

Robert: So when should we meet again?
Skal: You guys set the time. I'll be here if the good lord's willin' and the creek don't rise...;')
Cade: Next week? The following week?
Skal: 2 weeks from now sounds good...

This record ends at about 22:10 GMT.