IRC conference on channel #2W, 13 April 1997
The case for an OpenAmiga - Part 2
For this conference only a fairly raw log is available. The log begins
just as Alain Penders enters the discussion, and covers about 4½ hours!
People
| Name | IRC nickname
|
|---|
| Participants
|
|---|
| Giorgio Gomelsky | Gio
|
| Skal Loret | skal
|
| Thom McIntosh | Thom
|
| Fleecy Moss | fleecy
|
| Alain Penders | RexOrient
|
| ? | eagle
|
- fleecy
- Hi Rex, that was going to be on the first projects I recommended if no one was doing it.
- Thom
- what level of functionality ??
- RexOrient
- fleecy: javascript will be plenty available... there are
already 2 different implementations in the works... we'll just make one to
be complete...
- fleecy
- Rex; what you shooting for? 1.1? We've just go a great 1.02 JDBC thing going
- RexOrient
- 1.1.2
- fleecy
- Nice! I am looking forwards to playing - is there anything the JMS could do to help?
- RexOrient
- hmmm...cough up $100k for a full source license from Sun ?
- fleecy
- rex: I am looking at Java for most of our serious JMS apps, moving
from HTML to a Data Repository and building the client pages dynamically.
- fleecy
- So now Belgium is famous for 2 things, Stella AND a sense of humour!
- RexOrient
- oh no don't mention Stella! Water is better! Kriek rulez !
- fleecy
- if GW are serious about rewriting the OS I imagine they would
already realise that a JVM would have to feature heavily. A lot of these
cheap embedded booths they keep talking about are no more than JVMS anyway;
take a JVM enabled AmigaOS, a cheaop card and some ram and you could
knock them out cheap
- RexOrient
- :)
- fleecy
- Kreik? Isn't than Klingon for lizard?
- fleecy
- any plans are turning the tables around and providing class act as an IFC for Java apps?
- fleecy
- Thom:Tell us more about your VRML ship.
- RexOrient
- VRML ship ???
- Thom
- fleecy: ok, its an interface for the 25 year history of Greenpeace. SGI know about amiga , no ? :))
- fleecy
- what are you building it on?
- RexOrient
- fleecy: urmm... I'm not really sure what you mean.... you talking about making a GUI designer etc ?
- Thom
- a text based VRML editor mainly most of the initial modeling was done in Virtus Walkthrough Pro
- fleecy
- Rex: I was wondering, the AWT buttons etc suck bad - I had to do my own just to (x,Y) some buttons cos I used a panel as a blank map on
which to draw and didn't use the LAyout manager. I was wondering if you
were going to take the Class Act engine/set and build a distributable set
of gadgets for use in Java apps.
- fleecy
- Thom:do you have any dubious french characters walking around the
ship 8-)
- Thom
- the out put is pretty light compared to most regular 3d modellers
which is what u need for speed
- RexOrient
- fleecy: uggg.. we haven't thought about this... ever. if it
proves to be useful... but there are like a bazillion gui construction
kits available for AWT
- thom
- fleecy: hehe, well we want to make it multi user... :)
- fleecy
- Part of the project on our website is to investigate whether VRML
and say OpenGl will ever come together so to speak - what do you think?
- RexOrient
- fleecy: Frank Mariak told me that CyberGL is completely OpenGL
compliant now except for window handling
- fleecy
- Rex: a nice Amiga friendly one would be good though - could send
the Amiga look of apps into the real world - actually, to WebCruiser, are
you still considering an active desktop feature?
- RexOrient;
- fleecy: and VRML for amiga is in the works
- skal
- I just had a thought: Sun has set itself up as a bulwark against
Wintel Hegemony. I wonder if they would like to throw some cash our way?
- Thom
- well I know opengl is the main engine for SGI's Cosmo Player...
- fleecy
- Rex:so you boys are doing a VRMl as well?
- RexOrient
- fleecy: I didn't say that. I was referring to Vormel...
a vrml engine being made by some swedish guy...
- Thom
- phase5 must have some plans in this area i would have thought...
- * skal would like to note that we are now covered under the rules of
"Gentleman's NDA". Let's consider anything Rex reveals to be sensitive and
not for distribution.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: active desktop feature ? You're confusing me now :)
- fleecy
- Yeah, Thom pointed me at the Vormel page - that's one project I
would like to see us funding. Says its Ibrowse only - and now to a
delicate question for you. You know we are trying to push the AmiGA
forwards where it is lacking - we would want Vormel to be a standard plug
in for all Amiga Browsers - will Mocca be a standard plugin for your
competitiors? Ho do you see us working with competing companies in the
same area?
- RexOrient
- skal: well, this isn't a secret project of ours... Vormel
belongs to IBrowse/Omnipresence :)
- Thom
- DimensionX do a vRML viewer written in Java I believe....;)
- fleecy
- Rex:Active Desktop - remember on the mailing list, I was asking
whether you could use the Browser not just on URLs but also on the local
HD/CD/DD as a sort of universal file engine...
- RexOrient
- fleecy: well, we would like to support all other browsers with
MOca. It's not straight forward though...
- RexOrient
- Thom: yeah, but dimentionX licensed their stuff to microsoft.
so far for getting it on the amiga :)
- Thom
- Rex: but Microsoft are putting out the source as a reference for
anybody...
- RexOrient
- the problem is general for browser plugins... the CA browsers
use a rather open plug-in system AFAIK... hooks based.
The MUI browsers use a MUI class. both systems are not easily
exchangable.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: also, I don't want to put Vormel on the list of things
to sponsor :)
- fleecy
- Rex: any chance then you/ voyager/aweb/Ibrowse could agree on a
common interface to share yours and third party plugin?
- skal
- fleecy: Excellent idea...
- RexOrient
- thom: sure... I don't believe in M$ giving things away for free
:)
- Thom
- Rex: microsoft are trying desperately to play the good guys with
VRML...
- RexOrient
- fleecy: I talked about it with Stefan (IBrowse)... he was
interested (actually - he sugggested it)... for AWeb and Voyager it may
be a bigger problem.
- Thom
- because they realise they have a problem on their hands, thay have
already been seen off once by the VAG.
- fleecy
- rex: but we do need a VRML and a cool one/ Thom and me would like
to see the Amiga leading the world in VRMl much the same way it led in
multimedia - you guys would all play a huge part in that.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: but like I said... we already found that the largest
problem is not wanting to make a standard but the technical side... the
differences between MUI and the rest...
- fleecy
- Rex: is that politics or more technical details?
- skal
- Rex: A good argument for OPEN, and everyone on the same page,
industry standards, a council, et al, ad nauseaum...
- RexOrient
- fleecy: lets say that we have vrml plans that aren't based on
vormel and that would bring us way further ahead. These are just plans
so far, nothing concrete. but I don't want to blow up our options by
going supporting vormel
- RexOrient
- fleecy: technical
- fleecy
- rex:so you are saying MUI interfers with process? I thought it
just sat on top and played interface? If they are plans then would you
consider JMS help or even better, bringing them to the OpenAmiga as a
standard?
- skal
- fleecy: that sounds like something that would occur in a perfect
world. Got one you can loan me? ;')
- RexOrient
- fleecy: it's a different design idea. It should be possible to
make a common standard with interfaces to both MUI and CA... but it'll
have to be designed and all sides will have to give in a little. it'll be
a lot of work though, I can ensure you that
- RexOrient
- (About OpenAmiga) fleecy: sure :)
- RexOrient
- fleecy: I expect to have a more concrete idea about whether or
not they will happen in a few weeks.
- RexOrient
- brb
- skal
- Rex: Open Amiga Standards Council. Say that three times and click
your heels. ;')
- RexOrient
- Open Amiga Standards Council.
- RexOrient
- Open Amiga Standards Council.
- RexOrient
- Open Amiga Standards Council.
- RexOrient
- god - I love copy & paste :)
- fleecy
- Rex: if you like I'd love to send you the design docs for our
website which include some ideas. I want the website to leap forwards and
pull the Amiga with it, a completely immersive experience moving towards
William Gibson ideas - it all depends on you lot though 8-)
- RexOrient
- fleecy: sure, send 'em over :)
- eagle
- fleecy: Is "Jay Miner Society" official now?
- fleecy
- rex: a lot of work yes, but worth it for you...?
- fleecy
- eagle:no, Carol is still uncontacted about name
- Thom
- the Amiga community could take VRML where it supposed to be , a
virtual community on the net.
- skal
- eagle: Carl offered to drive to SF, to talk to Carol.
Interesting...Carl was the first person here today...
- RexOrient
- fleecy: yes. on the condition that all amiga browser switch to
it and will drop their proprietary interfaces.
- fleecy
- Rex:give us your personal EMail then fleecy@netreach.net - and
don't frEak about the AmIRC - it could be any IRC client 8-)
Then we all win - could you chat to Stefan about it or is that hoping
for too much?
- * skal basks in the warming rays of Convergence...Where's that reflector
so I can hit under my chin...;')
- fleecy
- Skal: See, if we talk we ALL want the same thing 8-)
Back in 5, kid bathing activities
- skal
- fleecy: I have known this for years. Just gotta hit the old mule in
the head with a 2 by 4, to get it's attention, from time to time...;')
- gio
- Even though not a techie, seems to me the last few minutes exchanged
tween fleecy and rex have OPENED UP (there goes that word again)
fascinanting arguments for Council and it's relevance to any new owner,
community and rest of computer world. Pretty certain meeself that future
developments in computing (and opposition to domination by few) will have
to follow this model. Innovation behooves Amiga tradition. Could all this
be put in some form eecognizable by GW for instance?
- skal
- Gio: Open Amiga Systems Council. It keeps coming back to that. Order
out of chaos. If Rex nails JAVA for the Amiga, isn't that where EVERY
Amiga owner,
developer and user will want to go, today?
- RexOrient
- back
- Thom
- gio: we need to stress to GW that the Amiga IS a community as it
stands, thats pretty much all that is left after the last few years.
- RexOrient
- re e-mail: alain@Finale-Dev.com will do.
- skal
- I can talk with Stefan but I think right now we can assume that
he's in. I suggest someone else - someone neutral - talks to Olli and
Yvon.
- skal
- Rex: We can do that. JAVA is too important to let the GUI get in the
way.
- fleecy
- Skal: IBM have pinned their hopes to Java as an OS2 saviour. Same
for AmigaOS. Once the big apps are written in it, no on cares what the
underlying OS is and then people can use whichever they want - that is the
promise of Java, that is why MS keeps trying to sabotage it. Their latest
is the best though - an outflanking - they want a UVM- Universal Virtual
Machine which runs ANY sourcecode - no point in all the VB guys learning
java if VB runs on a UV.
- RexOrient
- skal: ahwell.. I'll go for it if you organise it. I don't care
particularly if you all have to switch to FWC though ;-)
- skal
- Rex: GUI is so mall, in reflection. JAVA is huge, beyond
imagination.
- fleecy
- skal: not even the half of it - Java provides the life, the wind,
the interaction in VRML - it breathes life into the VRML world.
- skal
- I don't want Amiga JAVA held back by developers tools.
If GUI development tools are breaking JAVA, then developers need to get
back into the woodshed. Speaking as a consumer...;')
- RexOrient
- skal: urmm... not too fast. the only thing we're talking about
is the browsers plug-in/applet interface. this has nothing to do with
Java itself really... having java use MUI is possible ... just replace the
AWT classes. The problem occurs at a lower level. MUI makes it eassier
to write one big object that encapsulates the application. for
classact/boopsi, the application is the main things and the GUI is just a
layer around it (the way it should be IMHO)... because of those
differences, the way both sides designed their plug-in API differs.
- Thom
- Rex: is this a complex job ?
- skal
- Rex: I see it all the time, on the pc. Software breaking Software.
For no good reason, except the fact that that there is a little hacker in
us all. I don't want to see a fragile Amiga Platform descend to that.
Standards, or split.
- fleecy
- Thanks Skal, bloody Win95 crap!!!
- skal
- Rex: I thought an API defined a Standard, not a weapon of war?
- RexOrient
- thom: I can't tell really... we'd have to look deeper into it.
That in itself will be a problem.. since someone will have to get access
to 4 proprietary interface specs :)
- fleecy
- so if I knock something together for the 4 browser groups to talk
about?
- RexOrient
- skal: hell no... the software world uses proprietaty API's all
the time. It's how you protect your business.
- fleecy
- Rex:what I don't understand is the process sits under the
interface - each of your processes should present the same data and then
the prop interfaces can do what they like with it....why isn't it like
that?
- RexOrient
- like, I could support the standard - letting me run all
plug-ins from other browsers... but I could make MOca use my own
proprietary interface... giving me an advantage
- fleecy
- skal: it's true - that's what MS does!
- RexOrient
- Omnipresence might do the same for Vormel, too.
Right now, this is exactly what we do... all proprietary
although we plan to support MOca for other browsers anyway....
the standard would just make it eassier for us
- skal
- If I was writing plugins, or apps, I would want it to be the most
peacefully coexistant thing on the planet...something I don't often see...
- fleecy
- rex: but you could all agree to write all data to a common
structure that your interfaces could pull off, same as you could all agree
a plug in port for the plug ins (much like datatypes?) and you still get
you propritary process advantage...
- Thom
- I'm just going to see if i can find the Microsoft press release
regarding their giving away VRML viewer source...
- RexOrient
- fleecy: if a plug-in is just an image, it's dead easy. if it's
gadgets, controls, animations etc, it's hard. like who renders the frames
of the animation ? when ? you can't just render to a screen without
coordination... the buttons.. the browser gets
the idcmp messages.. how do they get passed.. .those systems are
completely different.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: yes, it's like datatypes, just 2x as hard. That's the
main disadvantage of DT's now.. they don't handle input and animations is
a kludge to say the least
- fleecy
- rex: true - I was thinking more of, a picture is a base
description, you say draw this gif, draw that text in that size - what
buttons you choose or how many times a second you choose to draw it is
upto the interface you are using.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: well, it can be done - no doubt. it's just not
straight forward. I don't know he exact implications. This isme
something for the GUI guys to figure out
- Thom
- ok, here it is :
http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/press/1997/jan97/msdonpr.htm
- fleecy
- rex:so we are actually looking at a bigger problem - possibly
within the OS itself - a much cleaner, abstracted way of passing logical
information between each other for the different physical systems to write
- sort of like a HAL?
- skal
- fleecy: lord knows I have loaded terrabytes of Win'95 complient
stuff, with gigs of .dlls..On my Amiga the LIBS subdir is so much
more...efficient.Why couldn't the industry have used that metaphor, rather
than one that seems to eat it's own foot?
- fleecy
- everyone: you see, this is the sort of thing the Industry Council
should be hashing out!!!
- gio
- I see and agree.
- RexOrient
- fleecy: well... you know... this may all be wasted effort
- skal
- fleecy: Tell me something I don't know...<sheesh>
- Thom
- fleecy: yes, but we need a formalised way of presenting it
and making it public
- RexOrient
- if GW2k restarts OS development, the GUI system will evolve..
and as long as we don't know where it's going, we're trying to shoot a
moving target.
- fleecy
- rex: maybe but I waste huge effort everyday at work pissing my
life away on corporate craposystems - if I'm going to find a toilet I'd
rather it be Amiga shaped 8-)
- gio
- How could it's wastefulness be assured against?
- RexOrient
- maybe a more general and more important thing is looking into
what to do with BOOPSI & MUI...in the future..
- fleecy
- thom:and that's what we have got to get out - how about making a
start - some documetn, some discussions, send it around us who actually
care, try and form it up???
- RexOrient
- well, get the browser makers to agree to a common API, and
we'll talk...
- * skal uses colourful language to express determination...;')
- fleecy
- rex: I agree - we all know the whole OS needs rewriting, new ideas
to the problems we all have discovered - Dave's IC is the place to do it
- gio
- I wish ol' Sassenrath was still around, but we'll send him copy of
this if OK with principals...
- RexOrient
- sure
- fleecy
- Rex:OK, if you get time 8-) send me a few ideas about what you
would want the browser "committee" to talk about - I'll swap you one
boring doc for another 8^) and I won't mention Stella Beer again.
- gio
- As matter of fact I just got an idea. We'll send it to Dave too and
we'll organize a private IRC early next week for you guys to trash this out.
Upon which we edit doc and send it off to GW.
- fleecy
- fine by me.
- RexOrient
- only if you find a better irc network by next week :-p
- skal
- Rex:8- P ;')
- RexOrient
- I hope you guys realize that BORG is a Vapor spy :)
- Thom
- fleecy : my skills are lacking in this area on how to even start...
- skal
- Rex: A SPYBOT? Ahhh, sheesh...
- fleecy
- thom:Ok, I'll get Skal's doc (when he finds his wax crayons), firm
it up and bounce it around us all.
- skal
- fleecy: I work in fingerpaints, exclusively...<sniff>
- RexOrient
- ok, I'm off to bed. 2am here :/
- skal
- Night, Rex! Thanx loads for coming here! Really!
- RexOrient
- see you all later sometime... take care.. bye
- Thom
- is there a book on how to do this finger painting thing ?? :)
- skal
- : Thom: Fingerpainting is a Zen thing for me...;')
Oh, what a cool thing! <skal grins like a mule eating briars...>
- Thom
- skal: like 6 weeks levitating and then a single immaculate
master stroke of the forfinger ? ;)
- skal
- Thom: ...and we had our JAVA Highlander here, sword and
all, not to mention his Holy Oban...;')
- fleecy
- now THAT was worth wife hassle for - Alain is a cool guy
if you stay off of his bugbears...
- * skal collapses....WooHoo!!!
- Thom
- why are these developers so itchy about one another ?
- Thom
- well it was good to get a developer here.
- skal
- fleecy: no, when the time comes, I will do seppuku with a
spork from Taco Bell...;')
- Thom
- they need a sense of the the larger picture !!
- skal
- fleecy: What a brilliant way of putting it. Christ, I have
to get back to Galsgow to brush up on vernacular...;')
- fleecy
- skal:OK, someone definitely send the good bits to Carl
and Dave, Does anyone want to do a summary bit for the website?
- fleecy
- where's galsgow? Is that near Phew Bork? That would be
Da' Fleece.
- skal
- Bork, bork, bork...;')
- fleecy
- skal:knob off!!! I've still got 8 projects to put on the
webpage, youR fingerpainting to read and a bit I want to send to
Carl and well as Alain's stuff.
- gio
- Cool...Think this IRC was fruitful in unexpected ways. Feel
the vrml exchanges adding very HEAVY arguments to Council
usefulness.
- Thom
- well I hope he goes and looks at the microsoft/dimensionx
thing.What we need is some way of getting the power to run VRML
on the Amiga
- skal
- gio: They have no idea of the depth of the resource, as
regards the developer community, and what this tenacious group
of people can accomplish. After all, the CATS were playing in
the sandbox.
- fleecy
- The website projects should keep some going for a a few
weeks - the IC must be our next objective.
- Thom
- in the mean time I can build what ever is required as far
as modeling/ behaviour stuff goes.
- fleecy
- Thom:well I am buying a Pios 1 and a quad board so I will
be fine 8-)
- Thom
- we need A12oo's with powerup boards
- fleecy
- Thom:look at the VRMl project on the site - see if that
gives you any ideas - we aren' ready to do anything yet on the
Amiga at least but we need a solid basis to start planning
- Thom
- and a cool VRML/irc app
- fleecy
- Thom - if you look at the UNCLE project you'll see phase
1 of the eventual VRML cient app to end all apps
- Thom
- do we have anybody on 2w that has a relationship with
phase5 ?
The log was interrupted here, but there wasn't much missing in between.
- Thom
- we should be acting as somekind of cement between all these
developers...
- fleecy
- Thom:yep, and that is how I see the IC - I would like to
see us ignore GW and create our own virtual computer which we
could licence to anyone - they code their own stuff and just
need to pay attention to THE interface standards.
- eagle
- fleecy: I don't think it's a problem having both PIOS and
abox, as long as they both will run the same OS. They'd just
be two differant third party Amigas.
- gio
- Thom, whole community needs cementing...Alas ferocious
individualism prevails, that is...until "punters" see something
they want to be part of. This something has to be sooo cool,
something an individual alone could just not get together. Hence
this here effort...
- skal
- gio: tonight, before our own eyes, we saw clear proof of
that. Just extend the metaphor to the whole industry.
- fleecy
- eagle:the only problem I hear is all these guys on csa.*
going on about all the HW banging they are going to be doing -
that'll shut our open idea down real quick. Don't get me wrong
- I'd love to see P5 succeed - they deserve to0, putting their
necks out like that - we do want to keep them together but,
just as Alain and the others must talk, so must P5 and Pios and
everyone else
- skal
- fleecy: From Dave's lips to god's ear: " I designed the
PIOS 1 so people could whack the metal"...
- fleecy
- skal:really??? What a naughty Dave - I suppose it's OK iF
you allow it as a proprietary addition to the openOS - I'd like
to hear him defend both ideas though?
- Thom
- gio: absolutely agree. I think our "coming out" presentation
to the amiga community is equally important if not more so,
as to GW.
- skal
- fleecy: It's easy. Metal Whackers kick the platform in the
arse. He like people searching for the equivelent of the fatal
Trash-80 hardware poke...
- gio
- OK, fleecy, seems to me you should be heading his ad hoc
discussing OPEN stuff committee, preparing questions for the
guys and we should aim at a "Summit" IRC ASAP, not to miss out
on presentation timing. Community at large also important, Thom,
but secondary right now.
- eagle
- fleecy: having both pios and phase5 might stop the
hardware banger. Also, wouldn't they need specs, etc. from the
manufacturers before they could bang the hardware?
- Thom
- The vast amiga majority wants unification, we need to
assimilate that as part of the strength of this effort.
- skal
- In spades...
- fleecy
- eagle: they should both be invited. HW bangers need
manuals - ha! I remember running a For i = 1 to 32767,
for j = 1 to 255; poke i,j;wait 100 just to see
- fleecy
- Sculley Sculley Sculley!!!
Anyway my drunken incorruptibles, King of the Hill
beckons - It.s been a blast. I will continue to smack the
website and start putting the OPenthing together - will chat to
Dave after he reads the logs.
Bye bye.
- gio
- Thom, correct. But there's a sheepishness about biggish
groups. They join if they feel more personally addressed in
their segmented sensibilities. This effort is typical example of
"group dynamics" at work. Say what unites us is the OPEN idea
we're particularly excited about. Others want something
else...So our aim should be designing such an argument for
openess. it's downright irresistable...
- Thom
- night fleecy
- skal
- Nite, William! ;')
- fleecy
- Skal's gonna get a KICKING!!!!
- skal
- fleecy: Pack a lunch...;')
- fleecy
- for your nurse eh?
- gio
- Bye fleecy, again thanks.
- skal
- nae, me bonnie wee laddie, fer' you will be at it for a
while...;')
- fleecy
- Ok skal, I Let you live for a while longer, if only to
teach you a better accent...
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